I think his assumption was that I meant by "the gospel" the nuts-and-bolts salvation message offered just before an altar call. I guess we never really hashed out what exactly I did mean by "the gospel," or (better) "gospel centrality," so in that sense I'm a little miffed at my own lack of clarity there, but all in all I thought the conversation was a real blessing.
This fellow is a hard-working and thoughtful pastor, but his "whole council of God" understanding (and you would know this from his preaching) is not decisively gospel-centric or Christ-centered. It is fascinating to me how Jesus can be "one of many things" a pastor might teach about, rather than those "many things" being subject to Him who holds all things together.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Col 1:15-20"That in everything [Jesus] might be preeminent" is the purpose clause of the passage. You might call it God's mission statement. If our own mission--and our preaching and teaching--does not jibe with that, something is definitely wrong.
Anyway, that's done, and now the decks are nearly cleared. I'm committed to a few more weeks of attendance (obligation, not desire) and after that, we're playing it by ear.
16 comments:
You are a man of great integrity an courage. Good for you. Good conversation.
I believe the 'gospel' whould infuse every bit a teaching that a pastor/preacher should preach. It's the 'power of God' unto salvation. There is not one 'whole council' of God that could not and should not be infused with the 'gospel'.
I wish you the best on your next adventure. Keep looking at the cross.
Lois
From the sounds of it, both you and your pastor would benefit big time with "The Talk-Part 2". Because if you're miffed because you weren't as clear about the pervasive centrality of the gospel then you two were probably talking past each other.
You could only stand to gain by maybe writing a summary "Why the Gospel is always in Season."
Your pastor could only stand to gain by understanding what you really meant and mean and hope for.
Perhaps you'll find that you both are closer than you think. Perhaps you'll find that you two disagree even more than before?!
But at least ya'll know the truth better...and the gospel!
I think it would probably be mutually helpful to have an ongoing conversation, but that doesn't seem particularly likely. Perhaps the conversation can continue in other forms for a while. If I could send him one reading recommendation that would capture the importance of Gospel-centrality in preaching (whether book, article, or blogpost) what do you think it should be?
Just for my info, what "is" your definition. What would you have the Pastor preach? I.e., only New Testament, Gospels, etc.? If you don't mind, give me an example. I kind of see his point about the whole council of God. One of my favorite Bible teachers, the late J. Vernon McGee, used this phrase, and taught through the entire Bible about once every 5 years or so.
Have you thought about telling the guy to read your blog? After all, it took me about two years of reading Mr. Standfast and Gratitude and Hoopla to begin understanding what it means to do gospel-centered preaching. Peace.
Bob, thanks for hearing me out. I know you'll pursue the wisest and most loving way to continue conversations.
Two outstanding articles are 1. "The Centrality of the Gospel" by Tim Keller 2. "The Biblical Gospel" by D.A. Carson. Both are online (and on my blog...I still don't know how to post links in a comment!?!)
I can't imagine after reading these one could ever say that the gospel is only part of the whole council of God!
But...before I read Keller's article I would have said the same thing.
Speaking of pandemic...the pandemic that is killing the church is a simplistic gospel. Too many of us see the gospel as the ABC's of Christianity, when in fact it is the A-Z of Christianity! (Keller)
Gospel-Centered is historic Christianity, biblical Christianity, delighting-in-God's-glory-in-the-saving-work-of-Christ Christianity.
Simplistic-gospel is modern Christianity, shaped-by-culture Christianity, and seeking my-best-life-now Christianity.
Simplistic-gospel is also fundamentalism-gone-bad Christianity, the world-is-going-to-hell-so-we'd-better-separarate-and-have-another-Bible-study Christianity, and the-at-least-I-believed-the-gospel-once-and therefore-got-my fire-insurance Christianity.
Gospel-centrality leads to gospel renewal which is also known as revival.
You might also ask him to read this little article by Tim Keller. Peace.
Thanks to Joshua and Milton for your help. You saved me the trouble of looking!
Milton, no, I haven't suggested he read my blog, on the ground that he's a busy guy and it seemed kind of self-serving. I'd rather point him to "authorities" like Keller and Carson and leave it at that.
Big V, you might try having a look at those articles to. Gospel centrality means that everything in the Bible, both testaments, is tied to the larger redemptive plan of God, which is made clear in the gospel of Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and present reign.
In other words, you may want to preach about marriage, or about avoiding pornography, or about the need to invite people to church (all of which I've heard lately), but there is always a way to preach these things in the context of God's redemptive mission. So, take marriage. You can find all sorts of Bible passages that urge certain behavior patterns on married people, but you must see all marriage in the context of the fall--all marriages are broken, and need to be redeemed. That's the crucial understanding, or all you've got is urgent calls to self-improvement.
I don't mean to load a ton of reading on you, but Horton's Christless Christianity makes this point, as does John Piper with great frequency in his many books, Keller, Carson, and many fine bloggers, not the least of whom are Jared, Joshua, and Milton, who have all commented in this string.
All-right, one more comment. It's easier perhaps to understand gospel-centrality when you hear a message that merely therapeutic chatter or the urging of changed moral behavior, with no reference to Jesus except perhaps as an example of someone who exhibited the behavior being urged on the congregation. But no such behavior is possible apart from union with Christ, which only begins to manifest itself as we begin to realize our own helplessness apart from him.
BTW, to whom it may concerned, I have continued the conversation with my pastor in an email (he's traveling just now) and think I have clarified what I had hoped to say to him in our meeting, and also provided him with links to relevant articles (those recommended by Joshua and Milton above). That's where it's going to have to stand for now. If you have a mind to, pray that he reads this material and God to bless the reading of it.
i find it wonderfulistic to read all the true relationship and conversation between you, the teacher, and friends here.
and your request for prayer is fantastical !
God's Love to you...
i see you are staying open to how God wants to use you.
You're about 2 steps ahead of me, Bob. Haven't had "the talk" with the pastor yet but did with one of the other elders. Would love to be able to sit and chat with you about this. Not many others around here who I can talk to about it.
Dan Cruver has a good series on Christ-centered preaching. Click here and scroll to the bottom.
Bob said: "All-right, one more comment. It's easier perhaps to understand gospel-centrality when you hear a message that merely therapeutic chatter or the urging of changed moral behavior, with no reference to Jesus except perhaps as an example of someone who exhibited the behavior being urged on the congregation."
I never know how obvious it is to many the difference between the gospel and moralism is. It seems clear as day to me. But most probably don't necessarily have philosophical "big picture" thinking, and to them hearing certain spiritual keywords (God, Bible, Kingdom, Spirit, wisdom, etc) automatically imply Christian truth. Instead of seeing beyond words or externals and fitting the statement into a category based on its basic characteristics... thus most people don't seem to be able to differentiate between statements like "We need to be holy" and "Jesus made it so that we could be holy."
That said, it sounds like this pastor does indeed understand the difference, and simply has a completely different paradigm for the role of the gospel. If you the gospel as step 1, and then steps 2,3,4....as having primarily to do with something else, you have a very different reading of the Bible from someone who is hermeneutically Gospel-centered. It might be hepful to bring up in these cases that entirety of the NT only exists because of the work(life, death, resurrection) of Jesus. The early church, the writing of their Scriptures, the calls to holy living, and to devotion and expectation of Christ and his Kingdom, these only ever existed because they were catalyzed by the going forth of the message. Not once but continually. "Persevere in the same manner in which you started" to paraphrase a verse whose location I can't recall...In other words- saved by grace, sanctified by grace, brought to Christian maturity by grace.
One more thing on gospel-centrality. I like to think of the Gospel as a big machine that you feed ideas and doctrines and ideologies into, and it digests them and spits them out- transformed but recognizable. I can't always tell you how to preach something that isn't the Gospel, but I can always tell when the message has been "fed to the machine."
Yup, or when it was not.
Here's a Q/A by John Piper on the question of pastors needing to "talk about the Gospel in every sermon?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okb0Lc5UmeI
Not sure if this is off topic or not but I thought it was a pretty good perspective.
No, right on topic, John. Piper speaks of "moving toward" the gospel in every sermon if not explicitly mentioning every element, and Chandler speaks of discerning the gospel from other things. I would say being explicit about which lens you are seeing the text through. One way to think of it is reading the text as 1) a slave of the law, or 2) a bondservant of Christ, who has set us free of the law.
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